[cctbxbb] Native python unittests for the libtbx testing framework

[Pavel Afonine]

Hi Graeme,

points you made are all good ones and I don't think anyone argues.

Also, I don't think anyone stops you from doing things your way, cctbx 
is open source after all. If you want to use Python test frame work - 
feel free to go ahead and use it (and you don't have to ask me or anyone 
else for permission). Markus asked for opinions and I voiced mine.

All the best,
Pavel

On 5/19/15 3:56 AM, Graeme.Winter at diamond.ac.uk wrote:
> HI All,
>
> I would like to echo these comments - there are times when cctbx can feel "different at any cost" which continually makes it harder to encourage people to adopt it as a basis for doing methods development. We should welcome opportunities to make things more pythonic when they do not break what we have at the moment. The testing is one such example.
>
> I appreciate that many of the "differences" are for a real reason, but equally saying "we don't do python unit tests, we do it *our* way" could easily be interpreted as being ... unhelpful ... to the new user or developer. I for one want these people to contribute to the project and make it better!
>
> Here at Diamond we have completely committed to using cctbx for a really rather large range of things, but even so persuading other people here to also use it is harder than it really needs to be. Installation complexity is just one reason...
>
> Best wishes Graeme
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctbxbb-bounces at phenix-online.org [mailto:cctbxbb-bounces at phenix-online.org] On Behalf Of Jan Marten Simons
> Sent: 19 May 2015 11:22
> To: cctbx mailing list
> Subject: Re: [cctbxbb] Native python unittests for the libtbx testing framework
>
> Am Freitag 15 Mai 2015 18:07:33 schrieb Pavel Afonine:
>> Hi Markus,
>>
>> lucky you, I wish I have time for side projects!
>>
>> I've been working on cctbx (and writing tests!) for the past 12 years
>> and can't name any problem using "libtbx testing world". Most tests
>> are written this way. Why I am not so keen to use an alternative?
>>      - why introduce inconsistency for no obvious clear pressing reasons;
>>      - I have no spare time to learn and get used to an alternative
>> framework (again, for no obvious clear pressing reason);
>>      - some rare developers (mostly postdocs that come and go) used
>> Python test framework in the past on the code that I work too and that
>> I have to maintain when people are gone. I find it is an irritating
>> overhead for me dealing with these tests, so typically I bother to
>> re-write them to use libtbx tools.
>
> Hi Pavel,
>
> those are sound and valid reasons from your point of view. But please also consider this alternative view:
> Coming from other python projects people are likely to have experience with the python unit test framework. As cctbx is using its own testing functionality people might be put off from writing tests or at least have to overcome this additional barrier on entry.
>
> I'm a strong supporter of sticking/moving to standards like PEP0008 [1] or
> pip/whl* based installs as conforming to those helps people to quickly find their way into the code.
>
> * wouldn't it be great if one could simply tell people this: "To install cctbx simply type 'pip install cctbx' in your terminal."?
>
> [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
>
>
> With regards,
>
>   Dipl. Phys.
>    Jan M. Simons
>   
> Institute of Crystallography
> RWTH Aachen University
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